tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post8362029628773064013..comments2024-03-11T01:39:11.362-04:00Comments on At the Scene of the Crime: Ten Little Indians: William Henry BlorePatrickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01844617192737950378noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-43937093582185334912014-05-13T16:54:42.902-04:002014-05-13T16:54:42.902-04:00i need to know for an english projecti need to know for an english projectAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-62435362632964942562014-05-13T16:53:48.617-04:002014-05-13T16:53:48.617-04:00does the book say when blore was born?does the book say when blore was born?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-20838458614318882392012-03-23T03:22:37.556-04:002012-03-23T03:22:37.556-04:00Richmcd, very interesting point that the "con...Richmcd, very interesting point that the "conservatism" of the GA detective novel is more structural than ideological!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-67390565568281710742012-03-21T08:34:34.885-04:002012-03-21T08:34:34.885-04:00At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth (I'...At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth (I'm really far more insterested in how GAD stories <i>work</i> than what they're actually <i>about</i>) isn't Symons wrong because he's misunderstood the thought processes that go into constructing a mystery?<br /><br />If the puzzle comes first, then so does the framework that delineates that puzzle. And the police often provide that framework, by discovering (but misinterpreting) clues, reporting times of death, taking witness statements. There can't be any hint of corruption because the superstructure has to seem sturdy for the puzzle to appear solvable. If none of the facts can be trusted then the reader has nowhere to begin.<br /><br />A more specific example would be Medical Examiners. In real life I'm sure there are corrupt MEs, bad MEs, even murderous MEs. You could certainly write a good book about it, and probably someone has. But in a GAD story the function of the ME is almost exclusively to provide information about the corpse and the time of death, and to quickly dismiss parts of the solution space that the author isn't interested in permitting. 99% of MEs in mysteries are competent and accurate not because GA authors have an idealised and conservative view of the institution, but for the completely banal reason that you can't write a lot of puzzle mysteries without an (implausibly) accurate time of death.<br /><br />I'd say the same is true for the police. I'm sure a lot of GA authors <i>were</i> extremely conservative and viewed the police as noble and incorruptible. But that's a red-herring. I'd say there's very little squalid police behaviour not because they <i>wouldn't</i> write about it but because, by and large, they <i>couldn't</i>. The constant spectre of police information being unreliable would undermine British mysteries far more than their American counterparts.<br /><br />So I'd say Symon's mistake is to read politics into a structural inflexibility. But maybe I'm making the same overgeneralisations that he is?richmcdhttp://www.completedisregard.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-83768225789688367542012-03-19T10:42:18.195-04:002012-03-19T10:42:18.195-04:00I've only ever seen the 1965 adaption of the f...I've only ever seen the 1965 adaption of the film I need to get with it! Great discussion guys:)Peggy Annhttp://peggyannspost.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-55068098871631649892012-03-18T15:31:30.369-04:002012-03-18T15:31:30.369-04:00Sergio, if the question is, was the British Golden...Sergio, if the question is, was the British Golden Age novel generally conservative, yes, I would agree. But is it as extremely conservative as Symons makes out? There I disagree. Symons suggests British authors wouldn't portray cops as bad eggs, that Jewish detectives would have been unthinkable, that the social order was defined as that of the Incas--all these are over-sweeping generalizations. Surely there's space between the Colonel Blimp view of the British detective novel and Dasihell Hammett's Red Harvest, the latter of which is exceptional even by today's standards (by the way, see my blog post where I point out similarity between Freeman Wills Crofts and Ian Rankin: http://thepassingtramp.blogspot.com/2011/12/good-cop-bad-cop-freeman-wills-crofts.html ).<br /><br />And I say a lot more about this subject in Masters of the "Humdrum" Mystery--coming soon! Read it and see what you think. I do Julian Symons the honor of taking him seriously and I engage him quite a bit. I've read all his novels and criticism and have enjoyed him, even when I don't agree with him. Edmund Crispin and Symons were great friends, even though they disagreed on about everything, from politics to aesthetics! I'll review a Symons sometime!<br /><br />Back to Agatha and Patrick's blog, I love the pictures of all the Blores. I actually think '89 Blore looks the most Bloreish!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-27611870583355767312012-03-18T08:08:25.132-04:002012-03-18T08:08:25.132-04:00Sergio, I'm afraid I can't agree. We have ...Sergio, I'm afraid I can't agree. We have named several examples of policemen who are not behaving in the traditionally heroic way Symons suggests they *always* did-- he leaves no room for nuances. (So when he chastises authors for their inherent conservatism, I simply throw a copy of THE FOUR JUST MEN at him.) Symons once again oversimplified something to make his arguments sound stronger than they really were. That, more than anything else, is his greatest and most frequent crime in "Bloody Murder". Thanks to this criminal record, he makes sweeping generalisations about the genre and created the term "Humdrum", only to throw Henry Wade (?) and Gladys Mitchell (???) into the group-- when the two are literally nothing like what the term is *supposed* to mean. While Symons' study remains the best-- no other book takes such a comprehensive look at the genre in such an entertaining way-- it also remains highly flawed.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844617192737950378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-86470404521322214592012-03-18T06:08:18.899-04:002012-03-18T06:08:18.899-04:00Curt I wouldn't for a minute doubt your superi...Curt I wouldn't for a minute doubt your superior expertise in this area. But on the other hand, in the main example (no spoilers) where Christie makes her policeman the villain from the GAD era he proves to be the bastard child from the wrong side of the family; and TEN LITTLE INDIANS is by its nature completely outside of the traditional GAD style (no heroes, all villains, no detective). Which is to say, Symons was basically right, wasn't he? To suggest that we can nitpick our way into a few examples where this was not the case does no damage to his argument whatsoever. Where are these GAD books that offer a Marxist view of society like Hammet's RED HARVEST?Sergio (Tipping My Fedora)http://bloodymurder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-80267169098008777552012-03-17T22:27:06.801-04:002012-03-17T22:27:06.801-04:00God, that stage adaptation was horrible.God, that stage adaptation was horrible.neerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01986509319841061021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-66492970457451386732012-03-17T19:44:07.481-04:002012-03-17T19:44:07.481-04:00Les, indeed! He's a bad'un. And Crispin ...Les, indeed! He's a bad'un. And Crispin was a diehard Tory!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-15625323845437072982012-03-17T19:42:12.775-04:002012-03-17T19:42:12.775-04:00Sergio, I agree that bad cops were much the except...Sergio, I agree that bad cops were much the exception in Golden Age English mystery fiction (indeed, I imagine they are an exception in fiction today as well, though less of one); but Symons conjectures that English Golden Age mystery writers had an ideological predisposition never to show police behaving badly. Whether they uniformly had such a predisposition, some did manage to portray cops as murderers and/or corrupt. With Blore, there's a really obvious case of cop corruption, in the bestselling Golden Age English mystery of all time<br /><br />Granted, I can't think of a novel that focuses as intently on police thuggishness as Symosn' Progress of a Crime!<br /><br />But my aim with the study of the genre is to find the nuaunces that are there!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-22629992122207834732012-03-17T19:33:11.281-04:002012-03-17T19:33:11.281-04:00A corrupt and murderous policeman also occurs in o...A corrupt and murderous policeman also occurs in one of Edmund Crispin's novels - in fact, it is BECAUSE the murderer is a policeman that the murders, plus another attempted murder, take place, aided by the way other characters simply do not consider the policeman as a possible criminal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-54664720982651807052012-03-17T19:12:15.552-04:002012-03-17T19:12:15.552-04:00With regards to that paragraph from Symons though,...With regards to that paragraph from Symons though, I remain unconvinced however that his general point, and the reasoning behind it, has really been challenged. To suggest that in the torrent of mystery novels and short stories from the 20s and 30s there were some examples in which the policeman was the murderer was an inevitability one would have thought. That this would be dealt with seriously in terms of institutional corruption and abuse of power, which is the point being made, remains I think equally rare for exactly the reasons the critic gave.Sergio (Tipping My Fedora)http://bloodymurder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-81635629864847597722012-03-17T18:53:36.265-04:002012-03-17T18:53:36.265-04:00You continuing analysis of la Christie's novel...You continuing analysis of la Christie's novel continues to impress - congrats guys. I hope you eventually sum it all together. Bravi.Sergio (Tipping My Fedora)http://bloodymurder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-33708163089377990912012-03-17T18:18:43.011-04:002012-03-17T18:18:43.011-04:00My favorite example of such is in Margery Allingha...My favorite example of such is in Margery Allingham's The case of the Late Pig! Really ingenious and much safer for the murderer too, I think.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-499247432649483938.post-13027442546239536302012-03-17T17:51:11.153-04:002012-03-17T17:51:11.153-04:00One big problem I have with the 1945 movie is that...One big problem I have with the 1945 movie is that there is no "bear" involved in Blore's death. Also, in Christie's stage play there is no foreshadowing of the bear clock, although their is a bearskin rug as a red herring.<br /><br />Death by falling object is certainly plausible to me, although Robert Barnard complained that it was utterly impossible to kill someone in the manner attempted in Hercule Poirot's Christmas, although an identical booby trap in a later novel was considered acceptable due to the reasons behind it.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03343947041898057102noreply@blogger.com